leonhart: black & white image of squall's gunblade & case from opening credits (revolver)
[personal profile] leonhart
NOTE: Spoilers in the comments!

So I'm finally playing Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines after hearing good things for years. I'm playing a Tremere and she's been fun.

What I'm wondering is, what mods can I download that will add some queer content? I'm always a bit confused by vampire settings that are heteronormative -- vampires have always been very queer for me, though that could be from reading Lost Souls and The Vampire Chronicles at a young age...

Anyways, yes. I'm open to kinky mods too. Just no rape or rape fantasy mods, please.

(Yes, I pretty much made this post hoping that [personal profile] dingsi will read it.)

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-25 11:30 am (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (my life rocks)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
I'm reading this at work and you just made my day. Will geek out properly later and tell you what I know, but until then I had to leave you the equivalent of a happy, goofy grin in your inbox.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-25 08:57 pm (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (Default)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
Okay, I'm having some spare time finally. Yay!
Let me get the bad news out of the way first: no, we cannot have nice things.

Bloodlines per se is one of those games heavily invested in a) the male gaze and b) the "all women are bisexual" trope. This means that when you play as a female character, you can seduce people (or often they hit on you first) left and right, including the women (and there are implicit rewards too, like prostitutes giving you lower prices because they "don't get to do women often"). It is rare that any NPC that can be seduced reacts negatively to a female player character doing it, but for male player characters the options are incredibly limited in contrast and even worse off when it comes to male same-gender content.
There is a male blue-blood and a male nurse who are bisexual, and even those had to be re-enabled by the official patch. There is one male NPC who is either gay or bi depending on the source (I haven't played far enough to test it out myself). And that's pretty much it. I've read on tvtropes that one inofficial patch makes Romero bisexual, but could not find further information and the patch developer I wrote to hasn't replied. (I confess this bugs me in particular, because Romero is my NPC crush and I really wish that mythical patch would exist somewhere. Even in the companion mod that allows you to recruit ghouls and vampires, Romero isn't even listed.) ETA: and what I wanted to get at is, despite this rather glaring imbalance I don't know of any mods that rectify it. I do know of several discussions though where people who would have liked more m/m content had to deal with the usual arguments how that is wrong and not feasible. All in all, fairly depressing.

I don't know of any kink-related mods. There aren't many mods or addons for the game in general, actually, and the ones that exist are mainly cosmetic modifications or adding quests/clans. I'm sorry I can't tell you anything more affirming. I've wondered recently whether I should dig into the game mechanics myself, because I doubt we'll get our gender-equal queer content unless we make it ourselves. But that is a daunting task for me that would take lots of time.

P.S.:
I'm always a bit confused by vampire settings that are heteronormative -- vampires have always been very queer for me, though that could be from reading Lost Souls and The Vampire Chronicles at a young age...

So much agreement (I practically imprinted on Lost Souls back then). I don't have the brainpower atm to go into the topic en detail, but thanks for saying it and making me feel understood.
Edited Date: 2012-01-25 09:00 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-26 11:48 am (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (i didn't know which icon to pick!)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
Duuuude, I am so excited over being able to meta squee with you now!

Oh world YES. Seriously I am SO HAPPY because I have SO MANY FEELINGS about this game. Also you're smart and not an asshat, so discussions will not be frustrating ;) I'm really quite grateful. <3

PS, how awesome is it that the author of Lost Souls is trans!?

Thanks, I didn't even know that! I stopped following his output sometime in the late 90s I think and had no idea what his gender identity is now. Back when I still read his interviews he identified as kinda genderqueer but not exactly trans, and I remember him saying "I'm a gay man in a woman's body". Which on the one hand was awesome because for the first time I read something that made sense to myself, about myself - it was still a clunky sentence but I adopted it, and I am grateful for having had that. On the other hand, later I often read that statement (or a weaker version thereof) coming from cis women describing their sexuality, and that was definitely problematic and made it hard for me to still identify with it. So much for my little story!

I'm very surprised by the scarcity, actually.

Me too! I've been wondering why. I got the impression that despite its cult status, Bloodlines is still not very well-known per se and that many gamers were put off by how incredibly buggy it is without patches, and there is no official support anymore either. On the other hand, the same can be said about the Thief series and that has a good modding community. My personal theory, as a layman who only learned some basic modding for Morrowind, is that the system and structure used by Bloodlines proves an additional hurdle. Python, for example. I have never used that. Morrowind, on the other hand, came with its own Mod Editor and it was easy to see which item belonged where and so on. Modding Bloodlines looks way more complex to me, therefore intimidating. On another level, there is the problem that you have not just dialogue and outfits to take into account, but also voice acting and lip synch. That's quite a lot, compared to games where you manly just have to change quest logs and a few item locations or something.

(More later, lunch break is over. Meh.)
Edited (fixed a typo) Date: 2012-01-26 11:49 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-26 04:40 pm (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (gaming)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
You modded Morrowind?

Well, no, apologies for being unclear. I haven't made any mods but after a while I got familiar enough with the process that I could change simple things (e.g. translate item names, deleting incorrect dialogue) and edit the available mods a bit.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-26 04:47 pm (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (vampires)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
I have to admit, I did not expect much queer content when I was fiddling with the character sheets and saw "Slut" as one of the background options.

Urgh, yeah. (I reckon you are using the Plus version of Wesp's Unofficial Patch then?) I kept scrolling through the male options for an equivalent but of course there wasn't any.

I haven't played a male character yet because I don't think any of them are very attractive (I'm shallow, shhh)

Same here. But I'm lucky because I find the male Toreador rather pretty. Also, his first two clothing items are that red silk shirt and then a blue suit which clashes delightfully crassly with his red hair. If the male Ventrue wasn't so beefy I could probably play him too (I just love suits, okay). But that's about it. The female options are a little better but unfortunately have mostly stripper outfits, terrible stances (breaking their spines so they can push out their tits and asses more) and stick-figure arms that make me wince when I see them. So... I'm stuck with the male Toreador and the female Brujah, I guess. Which is a shame because I am interested in how the other clans play, but I cannot do it when I don't like the models. It pulls me out of the game too much.

I am enjoying how the game is both gritty and campy. Noir camp?

Heh, yeah. It really didn't shy away from either and as a result is both gripping and hilarious. I mean, really, a surgeon who beats you up with a severed arm? That's EW, WTF and LOL AWESOME. There are so many examples where the game manages to make me roll my eyes but unable to stay angry at it because it is so unabashedly tongue-in-cheek. Yes we WILL roll out all the clichés and goddamn we will have FUN doing it! (Does not negate the problematic aspects, of course, but that's a different angle to come at it.)

Speaking of problematic, I still haven't made up my mind about the Voerman twins. In-game, I like them, and always go for the reconciliation option. (Tried out the other options just once, and to no-one's surprise they were very sad.) Out-game, they are a walking ableism campaign -- wait, does anyone else even read this or can we spoiler to our heart's content? Anyways, they fit into some old tropes that I'm not fond of, both gender-wise and insanity-in-popular-media-wise. So I'm torn. (Uh, not that the Malkavians aren't problematic in the first place if we want to discuss portrayals of mental illnesses.)

Romero you get to meet in Hollywood, which is the third hub and more or less in the middle of the game. Plus even when you arrive there you have to do some stuff for Isaac first, I think, and cannot go to the graveyard right away. I could link you to a good ingame vid but I don't know if that would ruin the fun for you when you cannot discover things for yourself.

Re: in which we get all spoilery

Date: 2012-01-27 09:49 pm (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (gaming)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
I take it that's not from the game itself?

I can't say for sure whether they were written and then discarded so the patch re-enabled them, or if they were inserted by a fan mod in the first place. I know that many fans thought the histories belonged there as they were part of VtM's sourcebooks.

I think the Toreador is good looking, don't get me wrong, but he's still a bit too bulky for me.

Yeah... *sighs* At least I could use the Fae-like history to customise him skill-wise, if not appearance-wise. But it's really sad how little variety there is. I tried to picture my OC in this and well, he's a small fragile androgynous creature. *hands*

but I think what's interesting about them is the trauma that caused the personality split in the first place -- incest is a common theme in Southern gothic literature, which is a morbid fascination of mine.

I see where you're coming from. (And I admit I share some of the fascination, though perhaps from a different angle, but I don't want to digress. We could talk about it at a later date?) On the other hand, the abuse and/or incest is another part of the Multiple Personality Disorder trope, including in real life where people were fed false memories in therapy and... it's all rather ugly. I realise the character is well-written and entertaining *in that universe*, for the purpose they have, and certainly with personality. And yet it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Ah well. *sighs*

Also, I was genuinely surprised by the Voerman sisters being in one body, even with all the signs.

And the game is really neat about this, even their computers show the different emails when you hack into them and you can actually follow a conversation for a bit where they accuse each other of ruining their lives. I love when developers think of this. (They also thought to give you an entry in Jeanette's contacts folder after you sleep with her. My Toreador was miffed that he just got an average three stars instead of four. I AM PRETTIER THAN THAT DAMMIT. *pout*)

And how awesome was the haunted hotel quest? It actually made me jump!

Oh damn the Ocean House. By now I can manage because I know the scripts by heart, and still there are certain events I do not want to trigger because I am so easy to scare. And the atmosphere in the house really bears down on you like a weight. I mean, it's not just terrible (heads stuffed into the drier etc.) but also incredibly sad. I teared up when I went past the children's room again so that the toy rolled in front of me and I realised how lonely the ghosts must be, trapped with their violent father and fearful mother, forever (unless Therese keeps word and exercises them). SO MUCH SAD I can't even.

but I think this time I'll wait to see Romero for myself. It'll give me something to look forward to. :)

Oh dear, I hope I didn't create overblown expectations because that would make me sadface. I mean, Romero has... his issues, both personality-wise and considering what the creators thought to give as (optional/alternate) quest lines for him. And I don't want to downplay that. But at the same time, I can't help loving him. Part of it is the voice acting, I admit -- it does, uh, things to me... and made me feel a little dirty once I realised that apparently Brian Mitsoda didn't have to change his voice that much to do it. (Eventually you can hear out the other bit roles he has in the game and draw comparisons.) Romero is, in a particular way, also very camp and larger-than-life, and I am perpetually torn between finding his dialogue and attitude charming, hilarious, and/or obnoxious.

Re: in which we get all spoilery

Date: 2012-02-02 06:24 pm (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (Default)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
Hey, no prob. Is the job at least any good? *hugs*

I swaggered into the hotel, thinking, "I'm a vampire, what do I care about ghosts?" I couldn't leave fast enough!

Oh yes! The tutorial and other events in-game make you feel like you could be a superhero (or supervillain), so of course you're all "what could happen? I'm a predator, they can only boo at me, so what". Well, then you're scared shitless AND it turns out spectres can hurt and kill you but you cannot kill them. Whoops! I always try to get out there as quickly as possible.

I actually really like him!

Whew! *happy flailing commences*

He's so matter-of-fact, and I love his voice. I recognize his VA in other bits and it makes me squee now. :3

Heh, when I first encountered the AM message he did I was all "hey that sounds kinda nice", then after meeting Romero it was easy to place and then I talked to the cop next to the Gallery Noir - the one that appears after you slashed the paintings - and there he is again. (His reply when you play a Nos is absolutely hilarious.)

Yeah, Romero doesn't sound like someone who's easily terrified. As for his matter-of-fact-ness regarding being a ghoul, that always brings up thoughts on how the male ghouls are portrayed versus the female ones (a topic I intend to write about later). But I'm left to wonder how much of his -- not nonchalance, but coolness... is an act. He lays on the seducer lines fairly thick, and A. seems to channel Ash from Evil Dead 3 a little too much (although, with that chin I can't blame him *g*) and B. there's a moment where he lets his mask slip because he's surprised that you really took him up on his offer to sleep with you.
This character gives me All The Feelings* because I find him macho, obnoxious, charming, badass, sexy and adorkable AT THE SAME TIME. I mean, really, can I take seriously a man who unironically uses phrases and terms such as "couchlympics", "boomstick" and "the pants party's started and no-one's passed out the invitations"? - I CAN'T. So I want to giggle, but then he says something either condescendingly sexist or painfully self-absorbed, so I want to tell him he's a jerk, but then he raises an eyebrow and smirks at me so I'm getting feelings... in my pants. (That some of your own dialogue hints at him being a sub or masochist is not doing anything to suppress them.) - WHAT SHALL I DO.

Okay, I'm glad I could get that off my chest. Thank you for listening and I sincerely apologise if that was TMI.

By the way, the patch developer I mentioned in a previous comment has replied after all. He said that the rumour that a fan patch makes Romero bi is just that, a rumour. This, and that you want more queer options just as much as I do, makes me determined to dig into the modding tutorial and get something done. There are quite a few characters that have enough gender-neutral lines to get modified, and even the ones where I know they cannot offer a Yes to same-sex flirtation I still think there's no reason why the player shouldn't at least be able to ask, you know?

* the other ghoul who gives me ambivalent feelings is Vandal. Vandal, you sick, disturbing, dangerous, self-hating, snark-dispensing, slasher-happy, masochist little thing you. Come on, tell me again how you bled for me. Was that deliberate or did you slip?

P.S. I don't know, this comment is fairly sexuality-heavy? I think about other aspects as well, I swear.

P.P.S. Barely resisting the urge to ask you a bazillion questions.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-04 11:34 pm (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (awkward)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
I'm... I'm not babbling too much?

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-04 11:47 pm (UTC)
dingsi: Close-up of Norb from Angry Beavers cartoon show. (default2)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
*hug*
Thank you.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-02-12 07:30 pm (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (gaming)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
Starting a new thread, because.

I hope your back's better? Could you get back to work or is that particular job completely out of the question? (I mean sometimes you can get used to things but sometimes you just can't.)

Not every character has to be bisexual or even open-minded. But besides the rich guy outside the apartments, I haven't found another male to flirt with as my guy, which is annoying.

I haven't checked out the restaurant critic yet but Phil, the nurse at the Bloodbank (in one of the back rooms, close to where Lily is being kept) is bi too. I think you have to have a Seduction of 6 though? Which can mean you don't get the option when you start the Lily quest too early or put the dots elsewhere. I mean, he's dead after the Thinblood quest, so there are no second chances. Poor Phil may not be that striking-looking (nor the brightest bulb in the box) but he's so cute because he's completely stunned by your flirtation ("Focus, Phil! Focus! ...") I liked the way they set up the dialogue. My favourite was when he asks you to leave and you can say "You just want me to turn around, don't you?" XD - Which ALSO proves that it's NOT SO DAMN HARD to set up gender-neutral dialogue, DAMMIT. (Why yes I am bitter.*)

* I am especially bitter because today I tried to find my way through the Modding Tutorial again and it just... blanks my mind. I find it incredibly hard. I mean there are basic principles that I understand, but any programming or script languages have always been hard for me because I think either visually or in concrete examples, not abstract. (For my definition of abstract. I mean, thoughts are abstract too. Yadda yadda.) Well... I don't know if I can put my ideas into practice (or when), but I'll keep trying.

As for the yuppie Blueblood outside... I grew oddly attached to him. Based on his responses, in my headcanon he's a closeted gay man in an unhappy marriage trying to bury himself in his work [and in fact I ponder changing his bisexuality to male seduction only, not just because headcanon but also because hey we can turn the tables around for ONCE can't we]. I returned to him regularly and kept him as my blood doll. (Which is only possible because ingame you can wait months for a tow truck to arrive, I know.) I kept thinking that maybe I could give him a bit of pleasure at least, be the pale beautiful stranger who for some reason always makes him feel a little weak in the knees after he's gone. Then I left the hub for Downtown and when I returned the corner was empty. It makes sense, of course (yay tow truck! finally!), but it unsettled me greatly. I downright ran aimlessly around for a bit, knowing that it was improbable he had just switched places but still hoping to find him. And part of that was my being a creature of habit (I like my things and people to stay where they are), but I think it's also fairly realistic roleplay-wise: my Toreador just had one of his major blood sources vanish into thin air. That would make any vampire nervous.

Vandal? Is he the one who sells blood? He is so creepy. D:

Oh, definitely agreed. Have you checked out 1. the records at Kilpatrick's Bail Bond shop?, 2. Therese's computer?, 3. the prostitute's schedule journal in her Downtown apartment (Skyline)? All of which deliver more details about him. (Also, you can seduce him but your Seduction level has to be really high IIRC. His reply though has a great line, such that I had to cut it out and put it on my mp3 player: "Start breathing, you corpse!" ^^)

Uh, what I initially wanted to say was: definitely agreed, but he also fascinates me a great deal. He's a bundle of contradictions and conflicting urges. And when you overlook that his expression usually makes you feel like he's going to stab you any minute while sporting that unsettling grin of his, he's not too bad on the eyes either.

Feel free! I don't mind. :)

Well, mainly I want your opinion on ALLLLLL THE NPCs. *giggles* But currently, I'm interested most of all in what you have to say about Isaac, Sebastian, and Mercurio.

Oh, and did you find Pisha and do her quests? In theory I would like to because mmmh delicious XP and nifty items, but in practice I can't bring myself to because I find the first one so cruel.

Re: End-game spoilers!

Date: 2012-02-28 12:24 am (UTC)
dingsi: Close-up of Norb from Angry Beavers cartoon show. (default2)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
So! I'm finally getting around to writing a reply, though I must admit I'm not very brainy today so I have no idea how it'll turn out. But I really missed our talk.

Congrats on the new job btw! I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed for you that it goes over well. :)

I think I'm going to start a new game soon with a female Brujah so I can try out a few things and compare. If you haven't found Phil on your own by then, I'm gonna take notes on his location. [ETA: have now written about it here.] I'm also going to check Vandal's... seductability?... because it may be that it only pops up after you piss him off and you need to offer him something to make him sell you some blood again. I'm sure I did not imagine it because the dialogue files contain the appropriate responses. (Also, I lol'd at your remark that the game is a cockblocker. It totally is!)

Bi Romero keeps slipping from our fingers...! Ah well, that's what fic is for.

Life, I'm feeling SO ambivalent about fic for this fandom. So very ambivalent! I don't trust my own writing at all so I wish someone else would write all this cool and sexy shit, but on the other hand I'm always afraid to look because it may be badfic. And most of what I found, well, it's not abysmally bad, but it's not good either. I know I'm hard to please in general, and I feel like a hypocrite because I don't like reading Bloodlines fic that revolves excessively around original characters while my own headspace stories do exactly that. Still: I want some decent grammar and writing, I want the characters to be recognisable (which includes their voice and vocabulary), and I want a little bit more than PWP or a drabble -- wait, no, even a series of drabbles can be great, and a PWP can be fleshed out so that it says something about the characters, so it's more about execution than genre. I have found great fanart but I haven't found a good fanfic yet that hit all of my requirements -- there is one writer at ff.net who goes for long and plotty fic that, although mainly about his OC, also involves the ensemble cast and I like that. But his style puts me off so, so much -- he's one of those who have devoured a thesaurus apparently, and want to squeeze every little bit out of it. Some of his lines are very poetic and evoking great imagery but it's so excessive and also makes many of the characters sound alike (not always by their dialogue but by the way their internal thoughts are being described, you know what I mean?). Tl;dr I want fic but I'm obviously not trusting people enough that they won't fuck it up.

But hey, we can at least leave prompts? Nobody will ever write them I guess, but we can share our ideas, right? I want to leave some new comments soon... partly because my brain decided last week that Mercurio/Romero is a really versatile pairing that you can look at from all kinds of angles (the term "pairing" may be a little misleading as often it's interpreted only romantically/sexually but I mean it more like "those two" you know). But there are SO MANY characters where I go "hey, how about some backstory / resolving their issue with X / what happens to them after the game"... *sighs* This game is a fucking cocktease, is what it is.

Hmm. Don't have the needed brainpower to go into Sebastian-related discussion tonight, and nothing to add for Mercurio. But what Moira said about Isaac really stuck with me and I've been thinking about it a lot. She's right, you know -- there is an iron core in him and he's not trustworthy either. I mean I wish he was, because he has a sentimental side and is still able to feel sadness and remorse (see: Ash), he's friendly and charming (as long as you are polite, and even more so when you're Toreador), and I like him. But he's a manipulator all the same. He revels in the fact that he is now old and experienced enough that he can boss other Kindred around instead of having to do their bidding, and when you act up, well off come the gloves and instead it's the iron grip.
And, you know, that snuff clip didn't even faze him. In any way.

I have a lot of feelings that I'm having a hard time writing down, so it might take me some time to formulate a response...but I love your ideas and now I'm wanting to RP VtM.

I feel I need to thank you for this, as it means a lot to me to get this positive feedback from you. ♥ Sure, take your time, I'm glad to know you read it and I can wait. It's hard but I can do it ;) I've been thinking about role-playing too, I know I'll never regain the nerve to enter an actual RP group but I thought about how nice it would be to have someone to privately rp with, free-form or story snippets or an exchange of characters' letters/emails or... something. Which I haven't had in quite a while, at least not without feeling pressure, you know? It's an issue of trust I guess, I need to feel accepted and safe before I (sort of) give my character into other people's hands. :/
Edited (added link and changed some word choices for clarification) Date: 2012-03-06 08:06 pm (UTC)

Re: End-game spoilers!

Date: 2012-08-20 07:27 am (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (Default)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
So! I am having a bit of spare time and read all our comments for nostalgia's sake (albeit it is slightly ridiculous to call it that; it hasn't been that long ago) so here I am. (And grateful as ever!)

because I'm having trouble finding myself in the game -- I mean, making a character that I really like and identify with to play through the game

I know what you mean. The design is one part of it, I reckon, but I also noticed that the lack of choices or histories is an issue. I mean, yes, there is an amount of railroading involved because of the main quest, and I know it can't be as much of an open sandbox as, say, Morrowind. (Rarely any game can.) But still, there are moments when the available options for dialogue and actions were only an awkward fit, or when what I would have needed simply wasn't there at all. So it's not as good for consistent character concepts as it looks at first. I am ridiculously grateful for many of the dialogue, sale, etc changes made in Wesp's patch simply because they widen the pool for available reactions, no matter how minor. (But I'm not holding out for anyone championing queer content or anything. Sigh.) On the other hand, sometimes the patch makes it worse by rolling back a feature that I saw as a plus because they saw it as a bug. Like, first you can choose the "Fae-like" option for guys and in the next version it's women-only. Because men cannot be "delicate" creatures who are better at running away and social situations (+Celerity, +Seduction, -Intimidation) than fighting. This change pisses me off to no end, it reduces choice and does so in a gender-stereotypical way. (Do I really have to rewrite/re-stat all the histories myself?)

I keep having this idea of a vampire/Heather fic that really delves into the issues of consent with ghouls.

Which I would love to read, btw. Or general thoughts on it, if you don't feel inspired for fic. (Which is not meant to make you feel pressured into writing; I just want to convey that there is an audience for this, even if it may be just an audience of one.)

I've been thinking about making a journal for the next character I play and chronicle their thoughts through Bloodlines.

Insert a copy-paste of my previous paragraph here ;)

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